Ministerial Advisory Group on Retail Crime chairperson Sunny Kaushal. Photo: RNZ / Samuel Rillstone
- Advisory group on retail crime consults on use of pepper spray
- The spray is presently classed as a restricted weapon
- Retail NZ and Security Association holds safety concerns
- Advisory group's value for money questioned as chairman claims over $230,000 in first year, and Auckland CBD office space costs $100k per year for up to 8 staff.
The Ministerial Advisory Group on Retail Crime has consulted with industry players on allowing shopkeepers to defend themselves with pepper spray.
The proposal faces stiff opposition due to concerns about safety around what is currently classified as a restricted weapon.
The moves comes amid questions about the advisory group's value for money, something its chairperson Sunny Kaushal - who was paid over $230,000 in its first 12 months - vigourously defends.
Kaushal told RNZ the group had already made recommendations, including about citizen's arrests and trespass reform.
This week it had delivered further reports to Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. One of them is a proposal to allow retailers to use pepper spray.
Kaushal said criminals needed to know their actions had consequences.
"We are looking at how Australia and other countries are doing, even the Northern Territory in Australia are doing their trials.
"There is a lot of work which is happening every day and we are on a mission. We are very passionate about the safety and security for our businesses and communities."
The advisory group had discussed the proposal with industry players, justice officials and police.
"It's up to the minister whether to accept it or not, but we have spoken to the retailers across the country and the other stakeholders, and that's how we come up with our proposals.
"And, we have a team of experts in their fields."
They included law and enforcement experts.
Safety concerns behind opposition
Like the recommendation to allow citizen's arrests, using non-lethal weapons as self-defence wasn't universally supported.
Retail NZ chief executive Carolyn Young, who is also a member of the advisory group, said her organisation's position was clear.
"That's a weapon," she said of pepper spray.
"Even if you licence it, as soon as you have something like pepper spray available for people to purchase in a licensed environment it's available on the black market.
"Police use pepper spray. We know that 24 percent of the time when they use pepper spray there is collateral damage, whether that's to people standing nearby getting sprayed."
There were also concerns an offender could overwhelm a retailer and use the spray against them.
Young said she was the only member of the advisory group against the idea.
"What we now know is that we're getting more and more people in an aggravated and agitated state coming in store, so de-escalation training and stepping back from a situation rather than stepping into it is actually the grounding principle of retail."
Retail NZ chief executive Carolyn Young says she was the only advisory group member against the idea. Photo: Supplied
The Security Association's submission to the advisory group said it didn't support the idea
"If this was implemented, we would expect offenders - particularly those who have planned to commit a robbery - will carry their own pepper spray, or other weapons, to help facilitate their escape or to use as a pre-emptive attack," it said.
"There is also a multitude of risks when deploying pepper spray and very rarely does pepper spray go as well as expected, and [it] in some cases inflames the situation."
RNZ also asked police for its position.
"OC spray is a restricted weapon in New Zealand under the Arms Act and it is illegal to import, possess, or sell without a permit from police and licence endorsement to possess," a spokesman said.
And while the citizen's arrest recommendations attracted plenty of publicity, Ministry of Justice officials have warned about their risks.
An analysis found it wouldn't reduce offending and any changes were unlikely to have much effect on public safety.
There were also risks of people using unreasonable force, especially on children.
Police, meanwhile, were concerned about the lack of training for retailers.
Chairman earns almost a quarter of a million dollars, office space costs $100k per annum
RNZ can also reveal that from 11 July last year, when the group was set up, until 18 July this year, the ministry paid 47 invoices to Kaushal for his work, totalling $238,625.
Kaushal also incurred fees of $18,400 between 18 July and 26 August 2025, according to information released to Labour police spokeswoman Ginny Andersen.
Kaushal said the group was operating well under its annual budget of $1.8 million, which is mostly funded from the proceeds of crime.
Andersen, though, questioned the group's value for money.
"At a time when Kiwis are doing it incredibly tough and there are record job losses right across New Zealand I think it's going to hurt New Zealanders to see the government's spending money in this space, when those ideas were offered to our government for free."
Under his government contract, Kaushal can work up to 250 days a year. He's invoiced for the maximum amount.
His daily rate is $920. The same rate is paid to Steve Symon, the chairman of the Ministerial Advisory Group on Transnational, Serious and Organised Crime.
The rate compares to $850 a day paid to chief victims adviser Ruth Money.
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says he will consider the proposal. Photo: RNZ / Mark Papalii
Andersen said she couldn't understand the disparity between the rates.
"It doesn't seem right. Victims should be first and foremost in our justice system and that should be prioritised.
"This government is on record saying that they want to put victims first. These actions seem to indicate that they're not."
Young said the advisory group had produced good work in areas such trespass law reform, but it was also important that industry groups such Retail NZ still had access to ministers.
So, there were pros and cons.
"What a ministerial advisory group can do is it can dig into an issue a bit more and develop a policy paper that normally you can get a government agency to do, but having a ministerial advisory group enables you to move at a quicker speed, because you've got this really concentrated piece of work."
Kaushal bit back at Andersen's criticism, saying conditions for retailers grew more dangerous under the previous government.
He defended the advisory group, saying it was working with people across the country and modernising laws that date back up to 130 years.
"We have been very successful. I'm very proud of the work that we have done and of our team, and the progress that we have made in providing quality advice in the form that is ready for legislation.
"And, it has received a high praise from the minister."
Kaushal said it had a busy programme planned for the next 12 months.
Further information obtained by RNZ shows the ministry has leased office space in central Auckland at $100,000 a year "for up to two years" for the Ministerial Advisory Group on Retail Crime.
The 389-square-metre space is used for meetings, video conferences and boardroom sessions, the ministry said.
Up to eight staff work in the space, which could potentially serve 38 office staff, according to office planning experts who recommend 8-12 sqm per employee.
The ministry said the space could also accommodate up to 70-80 people attending stakeholder engagement events.
Minister considering options
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith told Checkpoint while the proposal for pepper spray had just come through to him, it would be something for him to consider.
"I've not been wildly enthusiastic about it, but I'm willing to have a look at it, and we'll get some advice from officials.
"I can understand why individual shop owners would be potentially... may be keen on it. Of course there is the risk of... escalation and causing a more dangerous environment."
But first, he said he wanted to see the outcome of similar tactics being tested in Australia, something that is currently ongoing.
"I think it's a good idea to have a look and see how it works across the Tasman... that would be my instinct."
Goldsmith said the advisory group had also been tasked with coming up with solutions for anti-social behaviour in city centres.
While it was priority, he said no direct solutions had yet been revealed.
Another area of exploration was expanding the use of facial recognition technology, after it was introduced at FoodStuffs and approved by the privacy commissioner.
"The opportunity that provides to us is keeping customers and and workers safer from serious repeat dangerous people."
Goldsmith said he was confident the best value for money was being achieved with the $1.8 million yearly spend on the advisory group.
"The point of the advisory group is to provide another pipeline of solutions. That's all we're looking for and if I just rely on on the Ministry of Justice, we can only do so much... if I can extend that up to an advisory group, we can go faster and that's what we want to do."
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